The Clay Shaw trial testimony of Dean Andrews, continued
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Would you tell us the first time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the City of New Orleans.
A: I would have to guess. It would be in the spring or the summer of '63, quarter after 5:00, 5:30 in the afternoon, the day I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall it having bee in the month of May rather than June, or can you be specific enough to pin it down to a month?
A: It would be in the latter part of April, when I first saw him, as I recall it he visited the office four or five times.
Q: Now, in his first occasion, was he accompanied by anyone?
A: I assumed he was, I don't know that to be a fact.
Q: Well, on what did you base this assumption?
A: Three people entered the office first, the person who I met at that time was Lee Oswald, he came in second, and a Cuban-type or what I call a Mex came in last.
Q: Well, how long were these three persons who entered first in the office before Oswald entered?
A: Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes, I don't know, it has been so long ago.
Q: How long was Oswald in the office before the Mex entered the office?
A: I didn't understand your question.
Q: How long was Oswald in the office before the man you described as the mex entered the office?
A: They both came in at the same time.
Q: How large an office did you have at the time, Mr. Andrews?
A: Tiny, I had a reception room, as you came straight in the door and my office, to my right was my secretary's office, and I think I had a little bitty library, big enough to hold West's and a few books.
Q: Did you have occasion to have any conversation with the three people who entered the office prior to Oswald's entering?
Q: Were you talking with them at the time Oswald entered?
A: I am guessing, but I would say no.
Q: Do you feel that they were -- you said you had a waiting room or outer office?
A: They mingled, and then the three came in and then Oswald and the Mex stayed out in the waiting room.
Q: What do you mean they mingled?
A: Well, people come in the office, they stand around waiting for somebody to tell them what to do.
Q: You mean the three were there for 15 minutes and no one told them what to do?
A: That is not my understanding of your question. My understanding of your question is when they came in the office, in the numerical order, the three swishes came into my office, I mean the three people came into my office first.
Q: What do you mean by "swishes"?
A: Well, they just swished, they swished, they would walk --
THE COURT: You are an attorney, use the legal term so we will know what you are talking about instead of trying to make a comedy out of your testimony.
THE WITNESS: They appeared to be homosexuals by the way they walked.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Did they come directly into your office? That is my question.
A: No, they hesitated because I had to look up, can I help you, and the three came in.
Q: And then 15 minutes later Oswald appeared with the Mex. Is that correct?
A: Well, I am guessing at the time, whatever time it took them to explain their particular problem and a fee would be set and they left.
Q: I see. Now, had they left prior to Oswald coming, if you can recall?
A: As they were on their way out, I asked the next question, "What can I do for you?" and reconstructing this from memory now, as I recall, Oswald and the Mex walked in.
Q: I see. As far as you know, there was no connection between the three homosexuals and Oswald and the Mex. Is that correct?
A: I don't know whether there was or not.
Q: Now, what advice if any did you give Oswald on that first visit?
A: I take my attorney-client privilege. I don't remember, but I take the privilege.
Q: Was Oswald your client?
A: At that time.
Q: Did you ever receive any fee from Lee Oswald?
Q: Did you ever do any legal work for Lee Oswald?
A: Other than consulting with him, no.
Q: Approximately how long did Lee Oswald and this Latin-type of man remain in your office?
A: I am guessing. I would say between 10 and 20 minutes.
Q: 10 to 20 minutes?
Q: Who did all of the talking, or rather let me clarify that. Did Oswald talk to you?
Q: Did the Latin-type talk to you?
Q: Did the Latin-type talk at all?
A: He may have, I don't remember, but I am not sure.
Q: Do you recall the Latin-type's name?
Q: Could you give us a description of him?
A: Oh, he looked pretty built, I wouldn't want to tangle with him in a fight.
Q: Well, can you be a little more specific? Was he tall, short, thin, stocky?
A: I would say he was what I called the athletic type, stocky, well-built, had a butch crew cut, as I recall he wore a ponge, a silk shirt, pair of slacks, built real good.
Q: Did you see any tattoos on his person?
Q: Did you see any scars on him?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: What color was his hair?
Q: How dark was he?
A: Oh, I couldn't say, he was the Latin type, had the appearance to be -- appearance of Latin-type people.
Q: Did you ever hear him speak at all?
A: I don't remember. He could have, he could have in one of the visits to the office, but I don't remember. He didn't talk to me.
Q: Do you recall whether or not you did hear him speak whether he spoke the English language or Spanish?
A: I don't remember.
THE COURT: Let me interrupt you a second. Do you speak Spanish?
THE WITNESS: Poco, poco, loco, Judge.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Was this man that you described taller or shorter than Lee Oswald?
A: I would say about an inch, maybe two inches taller.
Q: Approximately how much did he weigh?
A: I would say 165, 170, a welterweight.
Q: As a result of this conversation with Oswald, did you know his name?
A: Yes, I asked him his name when he came in.
Q: Now, after this meeting did you have an occasion to see Oswald again in your office?
A: Between four and five times.
Q: The next time you saw him in your office, approximately when was that?
A: On the 1st of May, the first week in May, I don't know if it is May 1 or not, I don't recall. I would have to look at the calendar, but I would say around the first week in May.
Q: Was this again in your office?
Q: Where was your office located at that time?
A: The Maison Blanche Building.
Q: Was anyone with Oswald on this occasion?
Q: The same man that you described?
A: I had never seen Oswald, or Lee Oswald as he identified himself, unless he was in the presence of this Mexican.
Q: Now, how long did Oswald remain in your office on this second occasion?
A: Approximately the same time.
Q: And again, without divulging any attorney-client privilege, was your conversation generally centered upon the same subject that it was the first time you talked to him? A: I think a new subject was added at that time.
Q: Were you acting as his attorney on this occasion also?
A: I thought I was. He came back, I guess, on a consulting basis, I don't say an attorney per se, but he talked --
Q: Do you wish to claim the attorney-client privilege on the subject matter of the second visit?
THE COURT: If he wishes to claim it, I will sustain his objection.
THE WITNESS: One moment, Your Honor.
(Witness conferring with Counsel.)
THE WITNESS: I will claim the privilege.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Now, was the Latin-type in the office with Oswald on the second occasion the entire time?
Q: Approximately how big was your office?
A: The office that I sat in was maybe 10 x 8, our reception room was --
Q: No, just your own office, just your personal office, wherever this interview took place, how large is that office?
A: About as wide as your desk there, and what they call one window in the Maison Blanche Building, maybe up to Mr. Dymond's back, the depth, more or less.
Q: Now, on this occasion, did you hear the Latin-type speak either to you or Oswald?
A: The Latin never spoke to me.
Q: Did you hear him speak to Oswald?
A: I don't remember, he may have.
Q: On this occasion, did you collect any fee for the prior occasion from Oswald?
Q: Had you set a fee as a result of your prior consultation?
A: Twenty-five bucks.
THE COURT: I didn't hear you.
THE WITNESS: $25.00, Your Honor.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Is that for the first consultation or the second consultation?
A: I am pretty sure I did it at the first, but I am not positive. I believe the fee was set so that a letter could be transmitted to Washington, D.C., to require some papers.
Q: Did you ever transmit any letter to Washington, D.C., on behalf of Oswald?
A: Never got the money, never wrote the letter.
Q: Now, on this occasion, was anyone else present besides Oswald and the Latin-type?
A: Well, my office investigator may have been in the library on one of these visits, but I don't recall which one. I don't believe he had any contact with these people.
Q: What was Oswald wearing on this occasion?
A: The first time I saw him, as I recall he had black pants, a tee-shirt, the best of the time I saw him he had a white shirt, cuffs, open collar, slacks.
Q: Now, after this visit, when was the next time you saw Oswald?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it in your office?
Q: Was it again in connection with legal business?
A: The same subject matter as we talked about before.
Q: Was the Latin type still with him?
Q: Approximately how long did you remain in your office on that occasion?
A: I am guessing, I would say about the same time, 10 to 20 minutes.
Q: Would it have been the month of May or later?
A: I think it would be the third visit, as a guess, but it would be around the middle of May.
Q: Was it approximately the same time on all occasions?
A: Yes, after hours, usually between 5:00, 5:30.
Q: And he stayed about 20 minutes on each occasion?
A: As best as I can recall, 10, 20 minutes.
Q: Did you ever leave your office at the same time that he and the Latin-type left?
A: I don't believe, no.
Q: And I take it of your own knowledge you don't know how they physically got to your office building, is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Now, when is the last time you saw him?
A: About three or four days later.
Q: Where was that?
A: In the office, in the MB Building.
Q: And was he again accompanied by this Latin-type?
Q: Do you recall ever asking either Oswald or the Latin the name of the Latin?
A: I don't believe that ever came up because Oswald and I spoke short and direct in relationship to the subject matter and each time I asked him for a fee.
Q: And what did that precipitate?
A: No, he made promises.
Q: And approximately how long did this interview last?
A: About the same time, we would rehash the same stuff.
Q: Again this was approximately 5:30 at night?
A: Between 5:00, quarter after 5:00, 5:30.
Q: Now, did you have occasion again to see Oswald?
A: I don't know whether he was there four times or five times, so now I am going to have to start guessing as best as I can reconstruct. It could have been in the office, but my best recollection was he was on the street handing out chits.
A: Pamphlets, pamphlets about Cuba, help Cuba or something like that.
Q: Did you have occasion to stop and take one of these pamphlets?
A: I picked one up and looked at it and dropped it like a hot potato. I'm not interested in helping Cuba.
Q: Did you talk to Oswald on that occasion?
A: I think I asked him for my fee.
Q: Is that the only conversation you recall having with him, on that occasion, that is?
A: Well, as best as I can recollect, I asked him, "What are you doing giving out this stuff, whatever it was, I forgot the exact word choice I used, I asked him if he was working, I think he said yes, and that is when I asked him for my money. I believe he answered, "It is a job," something like that, I don't recall. The Mex was in the back of him, standing up against the window.
Q: Now, where did this take place, as you recall it, Mr. Andrews?
A: I thought it was in the front of the Maison Blanche Building.
Q: Can you approximate the time for us, first he time of day and then the time of year?
A: Oh, this would be 1963, sometime in June, I really don't recall.
Q: You haven't answered the question as to the time of day, as I recall.
A: I'd say 1:30, after lunch, I know that. I was on my way back -- I am not too sure if the Federal Court was still down on Camp Street or not in '63, I don't recall, but I was on my way back from that general direction. I may have gone to the Whitney Building or may have gone to the Federal Court, I don't recall.
Q: Was there anyone else besides Oswald handing out the leaflets?
A: Were other people around him? I don't recall whether or not they were handing out leaflets.
Q: Do you recall whether or not you noticed any of those persons around him being the Latin-type?
A: Well, when I noticed the one standing across by the window because I had adopted a little nickname for him, "Me and my shadow."
Q: "Me and my shadow"?
A: That is what I called him to myself, I never saw Lee Oswald without the Mexican. When I saw him there, I looked around and the Mex was up against the display window, standing still.
Q: Did he have any leaflets in his hand as you recall?
Q: Do you recall whether or not any of the persons around were Latin types, the persons that you have described that were around Oswald?
A: Well, they had some people on the -- like the curb, they were hollering at him in Spanish, pretty excited, and they would be quiet and holler at him some more.
Q: But this, would this have been as late as August, 1963?
A: I don't recall. My recollection was it was in June, but it has been so long I never had any occasion to pay any minute attention. I did not know Lee Harvey Oswald was going to get involved in Dallas. He was just a walk-in client, and that was all. I did not pay him any particular attention. The only oddball thing was that the Mex was there all the time, that is what probably drew my attention to him more than anything else, but he was just a walk-in client, he was picking me for information and not coming out with any money.
Q: As a result of your conversations with Oswald, had you made any determination as to whether or not he was a homosexual?
Q: Have you made any determination as to whether or not the Latin type was a homosexual?
A: Not that I recall, I don't believe.
Q: Now, after this occasion that you just described, did you have any other occasions to see Lee Harvey Oswald?
Q: How about the Latin type?
A: I don't recall, I don't think so.
Q: Do you feel you might have at some time?
A: I don't recall, I don't think so, but I don't have any memory to refer to.
Q: To your knowledge, Mr. Andrews, did anyone send Lee Oswald to you?
A: To my knowledge, no.
Q: Getting back to this call that you received on November 23, 1968, can you approximate what time of day or night you received this call?
A: I don't remember the exact time. I know it was daytime, probably immediately before or immediately after chow.
Q: Did the person who called you identify himself or herself on the phone?
Q: Did you recognize the voice of the person on the phone?
Q: From where did you recognize the voice?
A: I heard it many times.
Q: You heard it many times?
Q: In the course of your legal practice?
A: I claim attorney-client privilege.
MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I think he waived it since he said he heard the voice many times, he opened the door, and the State has a right to determine whether or not he hard it in connection with his legal practice, social affairs, business affairs or just where he heard the voice.
THE COURT: I sustain the witness' privilege. If he didn't claim it before, he is claim- ing it now.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: At the time you were speaking on the phone to this caller, did you associate a person, that is, a physical being with the voice on the phone?
A: I believe I did.
Q: What do you mean you believe you did, did you or did you not?
A: I believe I did, the answer is positive.
Q: Approximately how tall was this individual?
A: I claim two privileges, one, the attorney-client, the other is I respectfully decline to answer that question for the reason that in answering it may, might, would, could, or somehow connect me with the chain of circumstances, and the answer thereto may be used against me in a criminal case.
MR. ALCOCK: I would like to argue this outside the presence of the Jury, if I might.
THE COURT: How long do you think it would take? I would like to save the necessity of the Jurors walking up and down the stairs.
MR. ALCOCK: I don't think it will be that long.
THE COURT: Let them go into my chambers, Sheriff.
(Whereupon, the Jury was removed.)
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