Josephine Hug, Grand Jury testimony
August 23, 1967
ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
AUGUST 23, 1967
PRESENT: MESSRS. RICHARD BURNES, JAMES ALCOCK, NUMA BERTEL, Jr., Assistant District Attorneys
MEMBERS ORLEANS PARISH GRAND JURY
WITNESS: MRS. JOSEPHINE HUG
JASPER JOSEPH HUG
Maureen B. Thiel
Orleans Parish Grand Jury
MRS. JOSEPHINE HUG, after being duly sworn was questioned and answered as follows:
(Before Mrs. Hug's appearance, a letter on her behalf was presented to Mr. Richard Burnes by her attorney, Mr. James Gelpi. Mr. Burnes read the letter to the Grand Jury, and the Foreman instructed that it be noted in the Minutes and placed in the Grand Jury files.)
BY MR. RICHARD BURNES:
Mrs. Hug, I want to go through a few preliminaries before I ask you any questions. The first thing is that any witness in any proceeding does not have to answer any questions which are by nature of the question or by nature of the answers incriminatory. That is, you have the right to refuse to answer if an answer would reflect that you would be incriminating yourself. I am sure you understand that from Mr. Gelpi, your attorney. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And the second is, that you are obligated to answer truthfully all of the questions that you do answer before the Grand Jury. And the third thing I would like to say is that we received a letter from your doctor and filed it in the record, and any time that you feel physically distressed, I think you should call it to either my attention or to the members of the Grand Jury so that they may give you the benefit of the letter. Will you do that for us, please?
A. All right.
Q. Do you recall being interviewed earlier by me relative to your knowledge of Dave Ferrie?
Q. . . . And his entry into Clay Shaw's office in the Trade Mart?
Q. At that time, whose secretary were you?
A. I was secretary to Mr. [Jesse] Core.
Q. Where was Mr. Shaw's secretary at that time? Where was the office of Mr. Shaw's secretary?
A. We sat more or less in a row -- I was in the middle and Miss [Goldie] Moore sat behind me. The receptionist was first.
Q. Would it be a few or several feet as opposed to different offices?
Q. During the time this subject came into your office, did Mr. Shaw have other secretaries?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. During this time when the subject would come in and visit Mr. Shaw, would Miss Moore be present?
A. Miss Moore be present? I would assume so.
Q. You stated last time, I believe, or at one of our interviews, that sometimes you and one of the other secretaries discussed the subject.
A. She wasn't a secretary, she was the receptionist.
Q. Well, was she present at the time the subject was discussed?
A. The receptionist?
Q. Did you ever discuss the subject with Miss Goldie Moore?
A. I . . . er . . .
Q. Maybe I can make it plainer. I am trying to find out if, from your observation of being there, you could say she either knew or should have known about the subject coming in.
A. I really don't know -- seems to me like she would. But I don't know definitely.
Q. And the subject would come in normally at the working hours?
A. Yes -- nine to five.
Q. And that would be a time when both you and Miss Goldie Moore would both be working?
Q. When did it first come to your attention that this subject might be Dave Ferrie?
A. When I saw this man's picture on the front page.
Q. Was that shortly after Clay Shaw was arrested?
A. No -- if I recall, that was when he died.
Q. Mr. Shaw was arrested on March 1, 1967, and Dave Ferrie died, I believe on February 21 [sic -- February 22], shortly before this, before the arrest of Mr. Shaw.
A. Well, the day Dave Ferrie died, as I recall, his picture was on the front page.
Q. By that, then, you recognized the subject before Mr. Shaw was charged, is that correct?
A. Yes. If my memory serves me correctly.
Q. And then was your memory refreshed again when Mr. Shaw was arrested, that is, in relation of the two?
Q. So that would be two separate times you saw this subject and in your mind considered the possibility of the subject being in Shaw's office?
A. I considered the possibility that that might be . . .
Q. That would be the first time he appeared in the paper and right after Mr. Shaw was charged?
Q. Now, did [sic] you recall having occasion to be at a luncheon at the Andrew Jackson Restaurant in connection with your husband's profession as a radio announcer?
Q. And at this dinner, was the subject discussed that Dave Ferrie, in your opinion -- that you thought -- he was the person in Mr. Shaw's office?
Q. At the time that you discussed it, did you believe it to be true?
A. At the time I discussed it, I believed it to be true, yes.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to discuss this belief, or stated as a fact to someone else prior to being contacted by either me or Mr. Sciambra of the District Attorney's office? I am thinking particularly of Dr. Nix.
A. Well, I know we discussed it, the Garrison thing, and I don't recall definitely if I made any mention that it was Dave Ferrie.
Q. I believe you saw Dr. Nix the Friday before I contacted you, or the Thursday before, in connection with, I guess, a general nervous condition?
A. It was Friday.
Q. And then I contacted you Saturday, the next day?
Q. Now, at the particular time, did you discuss with Dr. Nix the reason for your nervous condition as having knowledge relative to the investigation that was under way? In so many words, did he say, Mrs. Hug, or maybe he called you Josephine, did he say, what makes you nervous -- and you say [sic], well, I know something about this man who is in the paper -- is that what happened?
A. No, he said to me, "your problem is tension," and I said, "yes," "that would not be hard to determine," for Dr. Nix had forgotten that my husband is in show business, so to speak, and there is [sic] a lot of social obligations, and my husband was in a very serious automobile accident in February and he had to have a kidney removed in July, and if a wife has never nursed a husband, it's not the easiest thing in the world, so that was the reason.
Q. These were other tensions that you were under at the same time?
Q. At the time of your discussion, though, did you discuss the reason that you were under tension, because you knew or you believed this person to be the person in the office?
A. No, that wasn't the reason for my tension. Actually, we had discussed the crime wave in the city of New Orleans.
Q. That's correct, and at that time I believe he showed you his Louisiana State Police identification card and showed you his pistol and told you his feelings about crime, and is this the kind of thing that happened -- you discussed the crime wave, and then it got around to the Garrison [sic] and Grand Jury's concurrent investigation of the assassination of the President?
A. That was more or less the topic of the day.
Q. And at that time, did you tell him you knew something about Clay Shaw?
A. He said, "I understand that you worked at the Trade Mart" -- and I said, "yes," I can't remember now what I said, but something to the effect that, yes, I thought that I recognized the man in the paper. Something to that effect.
Q. You did tell Dr. Nix that you thought you recognized the man in the paper as coming to Clay Shaw's office.
A. Something to that effect.
Q. Several times, not just one time, but several times, I'd say, for instance, a dozen times.
A. As I said, I don't remember verbatim what I said to Dr. Nix, but it was something to that effect.
Q. Now, in addition to your counsel and your husband and the people who were at the dinner at the Andrew Jackson Restaurant, did you discuss this with anyone besides those people and Dr. Nix prior to testifying before the Grand Jury the last time.
A. You mean the evening I said . . .
Q. The possibility that Dave Ferrie was the same person you saw in Clay Shaw's office. Can you think of anyone else you mentioned it to?
A. Mrs. Campbell.
Q. That would be Gracie Campbell?
A. Yes. After I had seen Dr. Nix Friday, and you contacted him -- when did you contact him --
Q. The same morning I contacted you.
A. Then I believe -- I can't remember exactly when she called me, and she said, "Josephine, what did you tell Dr. Nix?" and she said, "You having a personal problem or something?" and she said, "What about the Garrison probe? Dr. Nix has the impression that you fear for your life," and I said, "Grace, I don't know where you got that idea."
Q. Did you discuss any fears that you might have had with Dr. Nix?
A. We talked about the crime wave; I had no reason to fear anybody.
Q. Did you have any fears for your own safety?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you recall the morning you first talked to me and Andy Sciambra, Assistant DA, who I believe you had previously known, up at your house that time. Do you recall coming down to the District Attorney's Office and going to Mr. Sciambra's office about noon, or about one o'clock, and talking to me?
Q. Do you recall us discussing at that time the possibility of fear you might have had for your own safety if you knew anything relating to the case, and discussing the number of mysterious deaths in the case?
A. I recall something of that day.
Q. Then it would be possible that you also discussed the fears the previous day with Dr. Nix about your safety, is that correct?
A. There is a possibility, but I don't recall.
Q. In other words, I would like, if you can, without me asking you questions, tell me as much as you can remember about the discussion of Dave Ferrie being the person in Clay Shaw's office. I would like to hear it from you.
A. With Dr. Nix?
Q. Right. If you can just kind of . . .
A. I have just told you -- that was it. It was not expounded on.
Q. About how long did the discussion between you and Dr. Nix take, totally, the entire discussion, not just the Dave Ferrie part.
A. A few minutes. He was very busy.
Q. And how long did the discussion of Dave Ferrie take?
A. Almost touched on it, if I recall.
Q. Passed by it?
A. As I recall.
Q. And this is the same time he took out his identification and small pistol and discussed the other crime in the city, is that right?
A. Naturally, being a doctor, he carried narcotics.
Q. Now, have you been able to say conclusively in your mind, realizing of course the time you were talking at the Andrew Jackson it was dinner conversation and realizing, of course, that anything you said to your husband is privileged information, and realizing of course that when you talked to your doctor you were not anticipating testifying and why you felt probably freer to speak at that time, have you been able to state conclusively in your mind that this is the man, or it is not the man, in other words, or is it an area in which you are not certain?
A. After viewing pictures at Sciambra's office the first time and the other times since, it was not the man.
Q. You can say conclusively that this is not the man?
Q. Mrs. Hug, I would like to ask you this: When Sciambra and I talked to you over at your apartment, we did not mention the name, Dave Ferrie, when we first talked to you, and we asked you if there was anybody who came in who was unusual and you described the particular person, but you never mentioned the name, Dave Ferrie, and why is it that you did not mention the name, Dave Ferrie, to us before we brought up the name when you stated the previous day the possibility of Dave Ferrie being in Clay Shaw's apartment [sic] and when all of the allegations were in the paper at that time. Why is it that you did not tell us at that time? Can you tell me?
A. Would you say that again?
Q. All right. When Mr. Sciambra and I talked to you, I took notes of the people you said who came into the office, and we did not mention the name, Dave Ferrie. We asked you if anyone came in who had been mentioned prominently in the paper, and you did not mention Dave Ferrie . . .
A. That was the Saturday?
Q. That's right, before you saw the photographs, at your home.
A. Well, because . . .
Q. I think I have the notes I took at the time. Can you think of the reason why you did not tell me at that time that it could have been Dave Ferrie? Because at that time you had not seen photographs and could not have concluded other than your belief you had the previous day. There was no new information you could have had.
A. It might have been at the Andrew Jackson when we were discussing it, and my attorney, I think Dave Ferrie gave him some flying lessons or something, and in the dinner conversation we talked about two different people.
Q. How do you mean, talked about two different people?
A. I said I was relatively sure that . . . remember, I did identify a man who used to come into Mr. Shaw's office.
Q. The point I am making is that at the dinner conversation, like Wednesday or something, they are always on Wednesdays . . .
A. I was rather definite at that time, the evening of the Andrew Jackson, and Jim told me, "Joe," he told me, "that doesn't sound like Dave Ferrie, because there were different characteristics," and I said, "well, I am pretty sure," and he said, "you have the wrong man." If I wasn't sure . . .
Q. But yet on Friday, the day before I talked to you, you had spoken to Dr. Nix about this being the same man, and the possibility had to be in your mind.
A. It was a possibility.
Q. And yet, the next morning you would not mention the name, Dave Ferrie, to me. Is there some reason that you can tell me?
A. Well, I don't know why I didn't mention it.
Q. Were you frightened?
A. Well, probably, wouldn't you be?
Q. I don't know. Do you feel like you were frightened at the time and you didn't want to be involved? Was that the reason you did not mention the name at the time?
A. Probably so. And I did not want to be involved.
Q. Now, here is a picture that I know we haven't shown you before. Will you look at this photograph, please. Do you recognize either of the two subjects in the photograph? Do you recall seeing a photograph of Dave Ferrie in the newspapers?
Q. Do either of those subjects appear to you to be Dave Ferrie?
A. Not from the pictures I have seen? It would be this one here.
Q. That is Dave Ferrie.
A. I wish you had those two pictures -- you remember those -- I don't know if you were present at that time or not.
Q. We have some photographs here I would like you to -- now, this first photograph, do you recognize this subject?
A. Is this the picture that was in the paper?
Q. It is one of the two pictures in the paper.
A. Was this the one on the front page?
Q. All of them in the paper were on the front page. This is one of the pictures that was in the paper, and this is the other picture that was in the paper; now, which of the two pictures you were looking at when you thought you recognized the subject?
A. If this is the one that was on the paper, then this is the one . . .
Q. It would not be the picture with the hat on?
Q. You saw the full-page picture with the hat off, and that is the picture you saw when you thought he was the man who had been in Clay Shaw's office?
Q. Do you recognize the next picture there?
A. Evidently this is the same man.
Q. That is also a photograph of Dave Ferrie. Do you recognize this photograph? This is the other photograph which appeared in the paper of Dave Ferrie? Did you ever see this photograph, which appeared in the paper?
A. I don't seem to recall; I might have.
Q. I am going to turn through these pictures, and if you see someone you recognize, I want you to stop me.
A. I was not always there to check out everybody who came in the office.
Q. This is a picture of Mr. Shaw.
Q. Does this man look familiar?
Q. Is that James Lewallen?
Q. Did you know Mr. Lewallen?
Q. You marked a photograph here, let's see who this is; this is Morris Brownlee. What is familiar about this photograph?
A. Well, I am not positive, but this looks like the man who came in Mr. Shaw's office with the attache case.
Q. This look similar to the man who used to come to Mr. Shaw's office?
Q. Let me state the Bureau of Identification number is 122235 -- that's the photograph of Morris Brownlee, taken on 4-10-66. Now you say this is similar to this other photograph? The other photograph is Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office Identification No. 9729; 6-6-61 is the date of the photograph. Now, which of the two photographs come closer in your mind to the identification of the subject who used to go in Mr. Shaw's office?
You are pointing to the one of Morris Brownlee. Do you recall mentioning the fact that the subject had unusual eyebrows to me and Sciambra in my office?
A. Do I recall telling you anything about his eyebrows?
Q. Eyebrows being unusual, something that you would recognize?
A. I don't recall anything like that. Because generally this man always wore sunglasses.
Q. These are my notes I took at the time when I asked you about important people. You mentioned Lloyd Cobb, President of the Trade Mart, and one man who was very nervous and carried a brief case; his head was shaved like he had scars, and he would go in and close the door, chain smoker, and in his early thirties, never had to be announced, generally stay one to two hours. That was the subject you were thinking of at the time as Dave Ferrie -- is that correct?
A. This was the man who came into Mr. Shaw's office and the man you just read from your notes [sic] was the man that I thought was Dave Ferrie.
Q. Is there anything unusual about this man's eyebrows to you -- did they appear to be normal or . . . ?
A. The man who came into Mr. Shaw's office always had sunglasses.
Q. Now, this subject -- look at his eyebrows -- do they appear to be normal?
Q. They seem to be pasted-on or drawn-on eyebrows?
Q. Now, would he wear sunglasses to cover those eyebrows when he would come in?
A. The man I am referring to ? He wore sunglasses.
Q. Let's go through the rest of the pictures. Who is this, Sergio Arcacha Smith?
Q. And you only know him from this picture in the paper?
A. Yes. To the best of my ability.
Q. Recognize any of these subjects?
Q. Which one?
A. This looks like Oswald to me.
Q. It is a photograph of Oswald. You recognize this?
A. That is also.
Q. You recognize this subject?
Q. You recognize this subject?
A. Looks like Perry Russo.
Q. That is correct. Now, after the time that you began talking to us about the case, at any time has anyone other than your husband and, of course, you don't have to tell me anything about that, but has anyone, other than just casual conversations, contacted you about this case? In other words, has anyone purporting to be either State, Federal or local officials contacted you about this case?
A. You mean like the defense?
Q. Yes, or anybody?
A. Let's see -- I did get a phone call -- is was [sic], is there a Wheeler Detective Agency? Anyway, whatever it was, I referred them to my attorney.
Q. Have you been contacted by any Federal Agents or anybody who said they were Federal Agents; have you been contacted by any State Agents or anybody who said that they were State Agents; Louisiana State Police, or otherwise?
Q. Have you been contacted by anyone since April 25th, the time I met with you and your attorney in the Police Department downstairs? Have you been contacted by the District Attorney's Office about this case prior to coming back?
A. I don't remember -- I have been back several times -- I don't remember the last time I was back.
Q. The last time you were back you talked to me, is that correct? You and I were downstairs, you remember the time?
A. Oh, yes, downstairs.
Q. You haven't been contacted since then and before today, have you?
A. Talking about the basement?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Q. That is the point I want to make.
A. My attorney might have been contacted, I don't know.
Q. I was asking about you only. Now, when Wheeler Detective Agency -- did they say who they were contacting you in behalf [sic]?
A. I want to clarify that; my attorney would know.
Q. Did they say to you who they were contacting for [sic]?
A. Let's see, I believe they said, they asked for Mrs. Hug -- they called my husband at the Station, and I told my husband to return the call, and my husband said some FBI, I really don't know the name of it, anyway, he talked to Mr. Gelpi, my attorney.
Q. Did you give a written statement for anybody to be used, without knowing and going into what's in the written statement? About this case?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Well, it would have to be your knowledge if you signed one.
You gentlemen have any questions?
I think one of the things the Jury is most concerned with is that everybody says that David Ferrie is a man that you had once seen [sic], you couldn't forget him. That you would remember him and know him.
A. That is what my attorney said.
Q. That is why everybody is concerned with the fact that you did not.
Can you describe at all the man you remember as being the man with the attache case who came into the office?
A. I have seen that man once since then. He generally had an Ivy League suit, slight build, always carried an attache case, was a very high-strung individual.
Q. Did he ever speak with you or Miss Moore on entering the reception area, "how do you feel," or something?
A. He would just appear, you know, and we did not know where he belonged -- if he was a salesman or a personal friend of Mr. Shaw's or what.
Q. Did he ever stop at the receptionist's desk?
A. He might have.
Q. Were you the receptionist?
Q. Who was?
A. Miss Mercodol, she generally received.
Q. If I recall previously, you stated that when this particular individual would come into the office, he did not have to announce himself to either the receptionist, you or Goldie Moore, that he could walk right into Mr. Shaw's office . . . ?
A. If Mr. Shaw was in. You see, Mr. Shaw's desk was situated so that if someone came to the entrance, he could see them. He might nod . . .
Q. He might see them coming in and wave them on through?
Q. Did he ever come to the office, to your knowledge, where Mr. Shaw had someone in the office, and he either could not see Mr. Shaw or had to wait for some length of time?
A. I'm not sure -- he had to stand around and wait if Mr. Shaw was busy.
Q. When he was waiting -- is this where you got the idea he was a very nervous or high-strung individual?
A. I was walking towards him and he was walking real fast.
Q. Then you did have a chance to observe him at some length and in some detail?
Q. Were you working for Mr. Shaw at the time you saw this individual, or had you left his employ -- you said you saw him since that time?
A. I was working for him.
Q. You saw this man once; did you have close contact with him?
A. No, he was across the street.
Q. How long ago was this?
A. Just a few months -- this would be what? . . . It was after . . .
Q. You have seen him since we last spoke to you?
A. Yes. The man in question.
Q. He is the same man you saw going into the office?
A. The man on the street -- with the attache case.
Q. You are convinced that he is not Dave Ferrie?
A. Yes, he is still alive.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. I was trying to think . . . some place in the French Quarter, you know, walking down the street . . .
Who did you tell that you saw him before today?
A. My husband.
Q. Did you tell anyone else?
A. I don't recall. I might have.
Q. About how long ago was this?
A. I don't remember; maybe my husband would know. I don't recall; it hasn't been very long though.
Q. Why did you not call the District Attorney's Office and tell us? So we could tell the Grand Jury.
A. Because I thought you were interested in Dave Ferrie.
Q. But if you knew this man was not Dave Ferrie, from having seen him on the street, could you tell me any reason why you did not call us and tell us that you had seen this person and you knew positively it was not the same person?
A. I thought you were convinced that this was not the same man, in my mind. I thought I had convinced you.
Q. You mean downstairs in the basement or when you were in the Grand Jury, or when?
A. Well, all along, I thought I had convinced you. I made an error.
Q. That is the sole reason why you did not tell us that this was it. You don't recall leaving me with the idea that you couldn't say positively that he was or that he wasn't, that you were not in a position to say.
A. When was this?
Q. At any and every time. I can't understand why you did not tell me you saw the man on the street so I could quit looking.
A. Maybe my husband would remember, because I said, "Jeff, there is the man who goes into Mr. Shaw's office all the time," and I wanted to go get his name from him but I stopped myself.
Q. How many times have you seen this man since you left Mr. Shaw's employ? On the street?
A. Once or twice.
Q. You told this Jury some months back that you had seen this man on the street sometime before. Now, you saw him again since then on the street? Under the same conditions?
A. Yes. After I was before the Grand Jury?
Q. You saw him before you appeared before the Grand Jury?
A. I saw him after I left Mr. Shaw's employment, but I left the summer of 1962.
Q. I understand, Mrs. Hug, but when you appeared before the Jury you said the man you had seen go in and out of Shaw's office as being Dave Ferrie, that you subsequently saw a man on the street with his attache case that you had described, and at that time you said that you realized it was not the same man, because you had seen him on the street and you realized then it was pretty positive to you that it wasn't the same man, because you had seen him -- that was when you appeared before this Jury a few months back. Now you say you have seen him a second time.
A. I just saw him once since I appeared before you.
Q. You saw him once before and once after; you have seen him twice on the street?
A. I don't know exactly how many times I saw the man.
BY MR. BURNES:
Did you see him about a month ago?
Q. And that was after you appeared before the Grand Jury the first time and before appearing today?
Q. Do you recall me asking you if you could say that Ferrie and this man were not the same one, and you said because of the photograph, this morning, do you recall me asking you that? In other words, when we started talking, do you recall me asking you if you know now that he is not the same man, and you said because of the photographs you showed me. Do you recall that this morning when I first started talking to you?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. You don't believe that I asked you that? Because if I did, you should have told me that I know he isn't the man, because I saw him on the street. That is what you should have told me when I was asking you if you know now, shouldn't you?
A. Well, I thought it was unimportant.
Q. Is that the reason you did not tell me -- you thought it was unimportant? But you knew at the time that it was not for that reason.
A. The last time I was here, I thought you were convinced . . .
Q. But this morning, when I asked you if you thought this was the same man, why did you not tell me this morning that he is not the same man because I saw him on the street? Instead of saying now I don't believe he is because of the photograph. Why do you now put it on a photograph basis if you have seen him walking around?
A. Well, how do I know that definitely is the same man? I am talking about the man I saw on the street, was the man who used to come in Mr. Shaw's office.
That's the man you identified as Brownlee just now?
A. Well, I am not positive, but the man -- what I am trying to clarify is -- the man I saw on the street.
Q. Is he definitely the man who used to come into Mr. Shaw's office?
A. Definitely. He is the same man who used to walk into Mr. Shaw's office.
But when I asked you this morning if you still believed Ferrie was the man who went in Mr. Shaw's office, and you said, no, and I asked you why, and you said, because of the photographs you showed me. Now, why didn't you say instead, because I saw the man walking around; he is not dead. Why did you withhold that information from me?
A. I thought it was unimportant. I thought that I had convinced you that wasn't the man.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Nix that Shaw lied? Did your discussion about Dave Ferrie go so strong as to say Shaw lied about Dave Ferrie? Did the words originate from you that "Shaw lied"?
A. I don't recall making that statement.
Q. Are you in a position to say that you didn't make the statement?
A. I said that I don't recall making that statement.
Q. I want to read you what I asked you previously. It reads: Did you tell Dr. Nix that Clay Shaw had lied, that in fact, Dave Ferrie had been in his office ten times and you had seen him go in, and your answer is no. Is that correct? That is what you testified previously.
A. Now read that again please.
Q. This is a transcript of your testimony. This is a question I directed to you: "Did you tell Dr. Nix that Clay Shaw had lied, that in fact, Dave Ferrie had been in his office ten times and you had seen him go in," and your answer is, no. Is that . . . now, that is what happened before. Now, I am asking you again, is that true?
A. I don't recall saying it.
Do you, by chance, know a man by the name of Layton Martens?
A. Not to my knowledge.
In other words, you did not tell him that Clay Shaw had lied?
A. I do not recall making that statement.
Mrs. Hug, do you have any idea why you are here today?
Q. You don't.
A. No, they don't tell you.
Q. When they approached you on the subject of Dave Ferrie, didn't that give you an inkling?
Q. Why did you say [sic], "I saw this man on the street the other day and he could not be Dave Ferrie." Why didn't you tell us that then? Not wait all this time.
A. I wasn't beating around the bush, but . . .
Q. As you know, we are not convinced that the last time you told us the truth, or you would not be here. We think you know the man; there is no doubt in our minds that you are trying to parry with us. That is why you are here today. We would like to know the truth.
A. I don't know what I have to do to tell you all the truth.
Q. You walked in and the man asked you two questions about the man, and you say that can't be the man I saw -- if you can identify a man across the street and cannot identify a man from here to there, something has to be wrong.
A. What do you mean?
Q. You are not telling the truth. I can see Mr. LaBiche [the Grand Jury foreman] from here . . .
A. The man I saw across the street is the man who used to come in Mr. Shaw's office.
Q. Did he give the impression that he was a homosexual?
A. That is the impression he gave me. His mannerisms.
Mrs. Hug, you say that you think Morris Brownlee is the man who came in the office . . .
A. Think . . .
Q. Now, you are positive that the man you saw on the street is the man who went in the office. Now, do you think that the picture of Brownlee is the picture of the man on the street?
A. Do I think?
A. I think so.
Q. Are you positive that it is?
A. No, I would not make that statement.
Q. Now, I want to ask you -- the secretary working there at the time that the subject came into Mr. Shaw's office -- now, you testified that Goldie Moore was there; now, who else was there in the outer office when the subject came in?
A. Mrs. Mercodol, Mercandal -- Mrs. Darlin Mercandal. I believe she spells it that way. I do not know if she is still there.
Q. How many other people were there? That's three people.
A. In the other office?
A. Just those three, I believe. One time we had more people on our staff, and they cut down.
Q. Were there more people there when this man would come in?
A. I don't recall. All I know is --
Q. Now, you stated there was some discussion on this subject -- there are only three people -- now, who was the discussion between? I know Miss Mercandal and you -- was there any other person in the discussion?
Q. Who would the other person be, by "maybe"?
A. Perhaps it could have been Miss Moore, but I am not positive.
Q. Positively you discussed it with Darlin Mercandal?
A. We had discussed it.
Q. On more than one occasion?
A. Well, we had more to do than sit around and talk about the people who came in.
Q. Was he discussed by you two on more than one occasion?
A. It was discussed on more than one occasion.
You said that a gentleman came in the office who always wore sunglasses.
A. I would say most always.
Q. The gentleman that you saw across the street, that you identified as being the man in the office, was he wearing sunglasses?
Q. Now, you recognized him even though he was wearing sunglasses?
Q. Was he carrying the same attache case?
A. Looked like the same; looked like the same suit.
Thank you a lot; you may go.
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