The Clay Shaw preliminary hearing testimony of Vernon Bundy, Jr. (continued)





Q. Now, Bundy, did Sandra Neal come down here right after she graduated from high school in Los Angeles?

A. No, she didn't come right down after -- right after -- she graduated from high school.

Q. About how long after she graduated would you say she came down?

A. It was after I went to California. I went to California out there by her after I graduated from high school. That was in '62.

Q. In '62?

A. Yeah. I graduated from high school in '59. I went to California in '62.

Q. Well, now, how are you relating her coming here from California to June or July of 1963? Had she come down here right before that or not?

A. She came down in '63, in May of '63.

Q. In May of '63?

A. That's right.

Q. All right. Now, about how long after she came down here would you say this incident took place?

A. What? Me going out on the lake?

Q. That's right.

A. Oh, about a month or a month and a half.

Q. About a month or a month and a half?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did she come here in early May or late May?

A. I'm not sure, but I believe it was about the middle of May.

Q. So that would put this about the middle of June or the end of June, is that right?

A. The end of June or sometime in July.

Q. Could it have been the last week in July?

A. No. I'm not too sure, but I don't believe it was the last month [sic] in July. I'm not sure, but I don't believe it was the last month [sic] in July.

Q. Could it have been the second to last week in July?

A. It could have. Like I say, a little earlier or a little later.

Q. Could it have been the first week in July?

A. It might have been.

Q. Could it have been the last week in June?

A. It could have been.

Q. Could it have been the first week in June?

A. No, it wasn't the first week in June. How I know that is because, like I said, she was down here around sometime in May or the middle of May. And I was still kind of disappointed and sick. In fact, for a while there I had gotten away from drugs again. That was one time again that I had gotten away from drugs. I was so disgusted about her not wanting me, you know, and leaving the way she did. She didn't even contact me. She didn't even tell me that she was leaving. She contacted my mother, and told my mother that she was leaving. And that she had found out that I was on drugs, and different people had told her that I was using narcotics and running around with characters.

Q. And you remember the first week of June you were still despondent and feeling sick, and it couldn't have been the first week in June, is that right?

A. I'm not sure, but I don't believe it could have been. Like I say, I stayed off of drugs, say, for, oh, about -- after she left, I stayed off of drugs about three weeks, or maybe four weeks after she left.

Q. And when did you say she left?

A. She left -- well, she was down here about a week and a half.

Q. So that would make her leave about when?

A. Well, about a week and a half, coming down here about the middle of May, that would make her leave, say, about the last part of May.

Q. And you stayed off of drugs for how long after the last part of May now?

A. I would say after she left, about two or three weeks, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

Q. So that would put you up to about the middle of June then, wouldn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you know that at the time of this incident that you related, that you were on drugs, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell me about how long you had been on drugs at this time, after having been off of them because of your girl?

A. Would you state your question again, please?

Q. You say you got off of drugs until about the middle of June. About how long had you been off of drugs -- had you been back on drugs when this thing happened?

A. Maybe three weeks, maybe a month.

Q. Three weeks to a month?

A. Yeah.

Q. So that would put it in the early part of July, wouldn't it?

A. Early part of July or the last part of June. Like I said, how I remember those two months is because something look like [sic] it always happens to me in those months.

Q. You think you would be safe in saying the last week in June or the first week in July?

A. I can't be too sure, but it's somewhere up in there, somewhere up in between June and July.

Q. Now, you say that you saw the older man get out of an automobile out on the lakefront, right?

A. Right.

Q. What kind of an automobile?

A. A black sedan. I don't know what make of automobile it was, but it was a big automobile.

Q. Late model or . . . ?

A. Late model.

Q. Have white sidewall tires or not?

A. At this point I'm not sure whether it had white sidewall tires or not.

Q. I see. Now, do you remember how that older man was dressed?

A. Yeah.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. Very nice, full suit and tie.

Q. Full suit and tie?

A. Yeah.

Q. Was it a matching suit, or was it a sports coat and slacks?

A. It was a suit.

Q. What color was it?

A. Dark suit.

Q. Brown or black?

A. I would say in between a blue, a dark blue -- it was a dark suit.

Q. What color tie did he have on?

A. I don't know what color tie; I wasn't looking that close at the tie.

Q. What kind of shoes did he have on?

A. I wasn't looking that close at the shoes neither [sic]. I was looking at him in his face, wondering if he was going to approach me to see what I was doing.

Q. I show you a photograph which I have marked for identification, D-31, and ask you whether you can identify that as the man you saw.

A. No, this is not the man.

Q. That is not the man. Were there any other people around there on the seawall at that time?

A. No one but me and him at that time.

Q. No one but you and him.

A. Like I said, on the seawall there were colored people further down towards the colored section. You could see them, but they were so far down that they couldn't see what you were doing, or you couldn't see what they were doing. They were visible, but you didn't know what each other were [sic] doing. They were just that far away from each other.

Q. About how many blocks down would you say the group of people was towards the colored section?

A. I don't know, maybe four.

Q. Four or five blocks?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you see anybody in the other direction?

A. No, no one until the young guy approached.

Q. So the seawall was completely vacant down towards the white area, is that right?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. With all that vacant seawall, these two men held their conversation right in front of you on the seawall, is that right?

A. They didn't hold it in front of me.

Q. Within your hearing.

A. Not within my hearing. Like I said, they were about, say, twenty, maybe fifteen feet, a little more or a little less; I can't be too exact on just how far he was from me. But in a distance, you know, I couldn't overhear the conversation until the younger fellow came out in an outburst.

Q. As a matter of fact, according to what you saw, couldn't they have gone for about a mile towards the white section of the seawall and have been out of hearing or sight of anybody? Wasn't it vacant?

A. Yes, it was vacant.

Q. Now, when did you first interview anybody from the police department or the district attorney's office?

A. When did they first interview me?

Q. That's right. About this case.

A. Yesterday.

Q. Yesterday?

A. That's right.

Q. Did they come and pick you up, or did you get in touch with them?

A. They got in touch with me.

Q. Who got in touch with you?

A. Three guys from the DA's office.

Q. What are their names?

A. I don't know their names.

Q. Do you see any of them up here in court today or not?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you point them out, please?

A. The fellow in the jacket. (IDENTIFYING WILLIAM GURVICH.) The fellow over here. (IDENTIFYING CHARLES JOANOU.) The fellow standing up. He was in the room occasionally, but he wasn't in there for the conference. (IDENTIFYING SHERIFF HEYD.)

Q. Was Mr. Lynn Loisel there, too, or not?

A. Pardon?

Q. Was Mr. Lynn Loisel there, too?

A. I may know him by his face, but not by name.

Q. Now, where did they come to pick you up?

A. Where did they pick me up?

Q. That's right.

A. I was in Parish Prison.

Q. Oh, you were in the Parish Prison?

A. That's right.

Q. Now, had you told this story to anybody else or not?

A. No.

Q. You had never told anyone about this?

A. Never.

Q. That's all.


No questions.


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