The Clay Shaw trial testimony of Lloyd Cobb, continued



Q: Now Shaw -- Mr. Cobb, in view of the length of time you have known Mr. Shaw would you say you are familiar or not familiar with his manner of dress?

A: I am familiar with it to the extent of what I have seen in his business contacts. Q: Have you ever known him to wear a hat?

A: No.

Q: Have you ever known him to wear tight pants?

A: No.

Q: Would you tell us how he customarily dressed for business occasions?

A: He dressed like any ordinary businessman in all his contacts with the Trade Mart.

Q: By any ordinary businessman, how would you describe that?

A: On the conservative side.

Q: According to your definition of "conservative" style would a striped sport coat fit in that?

MR. ALCOCK: I object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: What was your question?

MR. DYMOND: According to his definition of conservative side would a striped sports coat fit in that.

THE COURT: Let him tell it to you. Let Mr. Cobb tell you.

Q: How would you describe the conservative businessman's dress?

A: Like these gentlemen, like you are dressed like I am dressed, there was n[othing] unusual about about his dress and [text missing] notice particularly.

Q: Now, Mr. Cobb, were you on [text missing] committee that greet[ed President Kennedy] when he visited [text missing] assassination?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: Do you know whether [Clay Shaw was also on the] committee?

A: He, he was.

Q: Did you see him at any time during the reception of President Kennedy or the festivities or proceedings that took place in connection with it?

A: Yes, I saw him.

Q: Did you notice anything unusual about his dress at that time?

A: No.

Q: Could you say whether or not he was wearing tight pants at that time?

A: If he had been wearing tight pants I would have noticed it so my answer is no.

Q: Mr. Cobb, would you say that in view of your knowledge of Mr. Shaw that you were and are familiar with his political views and feelings?

A: Well, from time to time there were discussions --

MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, any discussions with Mr. Shaw or any political views expressed by Mr. Shaw to Cobb would of necessity be hearsay.

THE COURT: You are correct.

Q: Did Mr. Shaw ever do anything that indicated to you his political feelings were liberal or conservative?

A: Yes, he indicated on many occasions --

MR. ALCOCK: I object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I sustain the objection.

Q: Do you, Mr. Cobb, have any opinion as to what Mr. Shaw's political beliefs were?

MR. ALCOCK: I object again, Your Honor.

MR. DYMOND: If the Court please, that is something upon which an ordinary individual could have an opinion.

MR. ALCOCK: He could only have it by having conversations with him.

MR. DYMOND: It could have been gained through actions and other things. I am sure Your Honor has opinions --

THE COURT: It could have been gained in ways other than what was said by Mr. Shaw to Cobb.

MR. ALCOCK: I think that ought to be established before the area is explored.

THE COURT: See if you can find out.

Q: Mr. Cobb, upon what do you base your opinion as to Mr. Shaw's political beliefs?

MR. ALCOCK: He hasn't expressed an opinion.

THE COURT: He asked if he had one.

THE WITNESS: I have an opinion in answer to that question and it is based on discussions and his general reputation with respect to his beliefs concerning political parties and the trend of the country.

Q: Do you know other people that knew him?

A: Naturally, yes, of course.

Q: Among those people did you know what his reputation was about political beliefs?

MR. ALCOCK: Any political beliefs professed by the Defendants are results of conversations by him and others and is all hearsay.

MR. DYMOND: Your Honor, the witness testified it was based basically on reputation.

THE COURT: Mr. Alcock, Mr. Dymond has rephrased his question to bring it in the realm of general reputation alluding to character, and one of the traits, honesty, would be political thoughts or beliefs. It is a trait in a human being and since you laid a predicate I will permit it.

MR. ALCOCK: Your Honor, I would like to suggest to The Court that if we are going into character traits that only that character trait is what is generally known and not this man's appreciation of the character trait was.

THE COURT: Will you explore that further?


Q: Mr. Cobb, did Mr. Shaw bear the reputation of being a conservative or a liberal?

A: In my judgment he very definitely bears a reputation of being a liberal.

Q: Have you ever known him to bear the reputation of a conservative?

A: No, just the opposite.

Q: Mr. Cobb, do you know whether or not Mr. Shaw ever took any active part in the Civil Rights movement?

THE COURT: This is of his own knowledge.

THE WITNESS: Of my own knowledge he did not and in his capacity of Managing Director of the Trade Mart if he had taken part it would have objected to.

MR. DYMOND: May I have those photographs of Oswald and Ferrie?

Q: Mr. Cobb, I show three, I show you a photograph which has been marked for identification State-40, and ask you whether you recognize that as anyone in whose company you have ever seen Clay Shaw?

A: I do not recognize it.

Q: I show you a photograph marked for identification State-1 and ask you the same question.

A: No, I do not recognize him.

Q: I show you a photograph marked State-3 and I will ask the same question.

A: No.

Q: I now show you a photograph marked for identification State-16-T and ask you the same question.

A: It looks like a corpse.

Q: It is a corpse. Have you ever seen this person in the company of Clay Shaw?

A: No.

Q: Mr. Cobb, I show you a photograph marked for identification State-19, and ask you if you have ever seen that man in the company of Clay Shaw?

A: I have never seen this man anywhere at any time.

Q: Now, of the people depicted in the photographs which I have just shown you, Mr. Cobb, have you ever seen any of those people in the International Trade Mart to your knowledge?

A: I have no recollection of ever having seen any one of them anywhere anytime.

Q: Have you ever known Mr. Clay Shaw to go under any aliases or any other than his true name of Clay L. Shaw?

A: No.

Q: Have you ever known of him being known as Clay Bertrand?

A: Not until this case arose and these allegations of that fact were made, prior to that I never have.

Q: Have you ever known him to be known as Clem Bertrand?

A: I would give the same answer to that.

Q: Are you acquainted with an attorney named Dean Andrews?

A: No. I know who he is.

Q: Do you know him when you see him?

A: No, I don't think I would but perhaps I would from the newspaper publicity but I don't recall ever having met him or being in his presence.

Q: Have you ever seen his pictures published?

A: Yes, I have seen it in the press.

Q: Answer this question on the basis of the picture you have seen in the press. Have you ever seen him in the company of Clay Shaw or in the International Trade Mart Building?

A: No.

Q: Now, Mr. Cobb, referring back to November of 1963 were you aware of any arrangements having been made by Mr. Shaw to go to the West Coast of this country?

A: Yes.

Q: To the best of your knowledge when did you become aware of such arrangements?

A: In the early part of September, it may have been the late part of August but about that time.

Q: Do you know what was the purpose of that trip?

A: The purpose of the trip was to make an address on the West Coast having to do with the International Trade Mart of New Orleans and world trade.

Q: Did you give any permission in connection with this trip or approve this trip?

A: I approved it.

Q: What was the proposed date of the trip, approximately, Mr. Cobb?

A: I didn't know at the time I approved it. It was to be in November.

Q: Did you have any question in your mind whether you would approve it or not and if so, why?

A: Well, at that time I wasn't approving any trips at all unless they appeared to be absolutely necessary, and we had one objective and one objective alone and that was to consummate the sale of the bonds that were set for October 8 and delay extended to October 10. I during that period of time, I accepted no speaking engagements and I think I requested Shaw not to accept any, but this was going to be after the closing date and either we would have a deal or wouldn't have one, so it didn't make any difference and I approved it.

Q: Would you have approved an out of town trip for Mr. Shaw during August, or September, or October of 1963?

A: On a speaking engagement?

Q: That is correct.

A: I would not have approved it and I think I mentioned to Mr. Shaw that I did not want him to accept any speaking engagements during that period. My recollection is I told him that several times during the year because under prior administrations he accepted speaking engagements as in his discretion seemed appropriate.

Q: Was there anything unusual about Clay Shaw accepting out of town speaking engagements?

A: No, it had been going on for years.

Q: Now, Mr. Cobb, of your own knowledge do you know who paid for this trip to the West Coast by Mr. Clay Shaw?

A: Well, I have seen the correspondence and from the records of the Trade Mart the trip was paid for by the people in Portland direct to Travel Consultants.

MR. DYMOND: I tender the witness.


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